Building a capital or should that be "a capitol"?

[Alexi Hesith]

It occurs to me, mostly because it is stymying one of my threads, that one of the issues with writing stuff set on Bothawui (at least stuff connected with Alliance governance and politics) is that we have very little established about what the capitol is like. Back in the day (i.e. the New Republic) we pretty much assumed that the place was much as in the films but that seems unrealistic since Bothawui is not Coruscant and this is not the Republic (Old or New). So I would like to do something about that by doing a little OOC work to establish some parameters to write within. What follows is a jumping off point for discussion.

1. The Alliance Capitol occupies a extra-territorial zone (a la the UN Headquarters in New York) gifted by Treaty to the Alliance.

2. The zone is a large plaza with the Senate Building at its heart. I like the idea of this being created from a derelict area damaged during the Civil War.

3. The Senate Building resembles the Senate Building on Coruscant in that it is circular with a large convocation hall in the centre with floating pods etc (established IC in any case) and looks rather like a mushroom and has all manner of symbolism built into it

4. The Senate Building is different in that it is not as large and it does not have suites of offices behind each pod. Instead, the offices are located in buildings elsewhere on the plaza.

5. The Senate Office buildings are dotted around the plaza, each built in a different style. These also house committee staffs.

6. The Executive and the Judiciary (such as they are) also have their own buildings around the plaza.

7. All these buildings all incorporate social and other facilities (e.g. eateries, gyms, shops) have been or are being constructed to designs selected in open competition from across the Alliance.

The reasoning for this setup would IC be that it signals continuity with the Republic but also a break with the old governments insularity by forcing its leaders out of the Senate into a public space, it also attempts to get around the idea of the Bothans controlling the Alliance by hosting its government. OOC it offers a range of settings in easy reach of one another to facilitate rps and storytelling.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

That all sounds great to me. I don't have a problem with that set up.

edit: just realized this is in the wrong forum, going to move it to RPing discussion.

[Torrsk Oruo'rel]

Ahoy there! Just spotted this.

A neutral / extra-territorial location is definitely a cool concept, and it would give us the optimum amount of freedom to do whatever we wanted. Couple of thoughts though -

• One of the reasons we picked Bothawui in the first place because we thought all the Bothan intrigue, espionage, Spynet, etc type stuff would give us an interesting backdrop. It meshed nicely with the Cizerack's way of doing things in particular, and Charley has already done some awesome things with that with Taataani. If we move to an extra-territorial site that is custom-built to be homogenized/neutral, are we going to risk loosing too much of that Bothan flavour?

• While moving to a site out of Drev'starn would mean that the Alliance capitol and the Bothan capitol aren't in exactly the same place, the Alliance capitol is still going to be on the Bothan homeworld, in the middle of the Bothan Sector, defended (at least in part) by the Bothan military and Bothan law enforcement. Do we actually gain the neutrality you're after, or is the difference negligible? Keeping with the analogy, does it count as "neutral" if you still have to go through US customs / drive through New York traffic / etc to get there?

• Aside from the Bothan capitol (the Combined Clans Building), there are a few other bits and pieces that are established as being in Drev'starn. Aside from a couple of Senators having residences there, and people having established the odd restaurant and what not, the biggest thing of note is the Intergalactic Trade Mission. That's effectively Bothan Spynet HQ, and for the last several (in-game and real life) years, that's been the headquarters for Alliance Intelligence and SpecForce, and it's where most of the on-Bothawui military characters have had their offices/etc. Are we going to relocate the military/etc aspects of the Alliance to this off-site location as well so they are also independent-ish of the Bothan government, or are we going to split things so that the military is in Place A and the government is in Place B? Either way, where people are going to live / eat / interact / etc is probably worth bearing in mind.

Personally, I like the idea of keeping everything in Drev'starn, and having to "clear space" in the city to build these new Senate buildings, and having a sort of... cluttered mishmash sort of situation. Something reminiscent of London or Washington DC where you can have a bank, a museum, a government building, and a military HQ all stacked up next to each other. I've been watching a lot of West Wing lately, and I'm loving the scenes where they can wander off into the city to get a hot dog and a magazine, and be back before their lunch break is over. Having something grand and swanky would definitely be a very aspirational and Republic thing to do, whereas having to "make do with what we have", adapt, work around the obstacles, etc fits much more with the hodge-podge mismatched vibe that the Alliance of Free Planets has.

I'm biased of course being the Bothan Senator and what-not... just offering a different opinion/option and such.

[Alexi Hesith]

I assumed that the Alliance Capitol would remain in Drev'starn. A zone designated by treaty somewhere in the city as directly controlled by the Alliance would be perfectly do-able. I have been toying with the idea that it might have been a derelict area, gifted (possibly to curry favour or gain an espionage advantage) by some wealthy property magnate. Such a zone would remain accessible tot he rest of the city for the West Wingy things you suggest (and actually that is what I am after doing in 'A Spot of Lunch' at the moment) but offer potential for some interesting side stories. For example: guy on the run dashes over the line into the zone. How do the authorities on both sides react?

I do not think we necessarily need to do the building starting in the present. We could simply retcon slightly by saying the Senate Building was built at great expense and speed to be ready in short order and has been in use for a while and that the office buildings have been going up at a fair lick. The senators are moving-in as are the associated people (hangers-on?) and businesses are starting to crop up. It leaves scope to add in other structures later. In 'A Spot of Lunch' I was considering having Heisth & Co dodging through the construction to an eatery.

Oh and the entire government need not be in the zone. Some people might prefer to be "off site". Indeed, space would still be at a premium no matter how many buildings went up. It's a big Alliance after all.

[Torrsk Oruo'rel]

I guess the big niggle for me is "why does it need to be extra-territorial"?

We're not the United Nations. The UN exists to give different countries a place where they can squabble about their differences without going to war over them, and for that they need "neutral ground". The Alliance on the other hand exists because worlds like Bothawui sheltered rebels and refugees, and because "the strong" were there to protect "the weak". This is why we give four governments (Calamari Sector, Bothan Sector, Carshoulis Cluster, Hapes Cluster) dual representation in the Senate, to symbolise the fact that they're the big dogs that make the Alliance possible. Putting the Senate in an extra-territorial zone to "protect" them from Bothan government/law seems a little contrary to that message.

If you're thinking of it from a storytelling perspective, and want the interesting tidbit of someone fleeing from Bothan law and seeking asylum with the Senate, it's worth considering that the Bothans are pretty moderate all things considered: they may spy on you, but their laws and Republic / Alliance law are pretty much the same. Those kinds of stories probably fit better on Jovan Station, where you've not only got the Imperial-Alliance border, but also the culture clashes with the much less moderate Cizerack. There's already a story about the Cizerack wanting to execute a man for piracy. Jovan seems like it's the place to go for stories where law and politics is muddy - the Senate stuff (thus far) has skewed more towards the debate, scheming, and intrigue side of things.


As an alternative, what if we took the existing Merchant's Square in Drev'starn, and repurposed it for our needs? Being a Merchant's Square, there are presumably some storehouses/warehouses that could be demolished or relocated in order to make room for the Capitol Building itself. Perhaps the Senate offices are located in/around "The Old Market", and "The Old Market Plaza" is the area that leads up to the doors of the Capitol Building. The Merchant's Square is already the location of the Combined Clans Building, so not only are there definitely offices/amenities/swanky restaurants in the area befitting Alliance Senators, it also potentially sends the message that "we cooperate with local governments" by having them relatively close together... unity, and all that. It's also where the Intergalactic Trade Mission presumably is which, as mentioned, is where the Spynet, Alliance Intelligence, SpecForce, Admiral Tyree, et all already have offices. It turns the entire region into the political district of Drev'starn, and it has a very strong "we're building on what was already here" message... which really fits with the Alliance. Whether it's our personnel, our politics, our law, or our fleets, we make use of the old as much as we possibly can, but when we have to we augment it with something new and better.

That would still (to some extent) provide you with your hypothetical line for criminals to cross: presumably there is a point where Drev'starn transitions from being under the jurisdiction of Bothan law enforcement and onto "Senate security" turf, but it'd be a bit more fluid than an arbitrary line, more like transition from the DC Police to the Secret Service, or from Coruscant Police to the Senate Guards. There's still room for stories where someone might prefer to be arrested by the Senate Police (because they will extradite them to an Alliance-run prison or back to their homeworld, rather than them being imprisoned on Bothawui away from their family, perhaps?) instead of the Bothan Police, but it becomes more of a police procedural/jurisdiction affair, rather than a hard-and-fast "I'm touching home base, you can't tag me now, na-na-na-naaa-naaaa" asylum situation.

[Alexi Hesith]

We're not the United Nations.

There are similarities, however. The Alliance is just that: an alliance. It is made up of member nations (worlds/governments) co-operating (or at least trying to) in order to achieve an agreed set of objectives through shared institutions. These institutions, like the Alliance itself, are above and beyond those of any single member. Putting them in their own zone, even if it is only technically, signals and recognises this.

Putting the Senate in an extra-territorial zone to "protect" them from Bothan government/law seems a little contrary to that message.

Except that the Bothan government will not be regarded as a friend by everyone no more than everyone regards the United States government as a friend of every member of the United Nations. Also, most representative democracies grant some form of protection to legislators against executive action (e.g. arrest).

If you're thinking of it from a storytelling perspective, and want the interesting tidbit of someone fleeing from Bothan law and seeking asylum with the Senate, it's worth considering that the Bothans are pretty moderate all things considered: they may spy on you, but their laws and Republic / Alliance law are pretty much the same.

I am not wedded to the idea of a fugitive using the line to seek refuge, it was just an example from t he top (and slightly to the left) of my head. However, I would point out that governments and laws do change (something members of the Alliance are all to aware of) so it would be prudent to guard against a change in Bothan policy at some point in the future.

As an alternative, what if we took the existing Merchant's Square in Drev'starn, and repurposed it for our needs? Being a Merchant's Square, there are presumably some storehouses/warehouses that could be demolished or relocated in order to make room for the Capitol Building itself. Perhaps the Senate offices are located in/around "The Old Market", and "The Old Market Plaza" is the area that leads up to the doors of the Capitol Building.

This sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I did not at any point think that the Capitol would be placed far from the centre of things. A unified core of buildings is what I envisage, near the centre of things, easily in reach of everything. I do think, however, it needs to be extra-territorial even if that is only a technicality in practice because local law enforcement is allowed to operate pretty normally.

[Captain Untouchable]

There are similarities, however. The Alliance is just that: an alliance. It is made up of member nations (worlds/governments) co-operating (or at least trying to) in order to achieve an agreed set of objectives through shared institutions. These institutions, like the Alliance itself, are above and beyond those of any single member. Putting them in their own zone, even if it is only technically, signals and recognises this.

Except that isn't how the Alliance works. It's much more like the United States than the United Nations: there is a central federal government that controls the military, determines law, sets policy, and all that stuff. The member states still have a certain leeway to self-govern, but it's not like the United Nations where a member can elect to ignore a federal ruling. In the United Nations, the UK and the US were able to go off and engage in military action in Iraq despite the United Nation's objections to doing so: if two members of the Alliance decided to do that, the Alliance as a whole would be seen as declaring war. It's a very, very different situation.

Also, who exactly are the Bothans a threat to? They've been a mainstay of the Alliance for years, they have welcomed the Alliance and it's leadership with open arms ever since they were liberated, "many Bothans died" to bring about some of the Alliance's most significant victories. They were chosen as the capital to reflect that... and the fact that they suddenly "can't be trusted" is a pretty heinous backhand. If the Bothans have any political enemies, it's the Senators who tabled that motion, because it's pretty damn insulting, especially when you consider how proud the Bothans are as a people. I do not see it being a demand that they went along with willingly.

I could see an argument being made for the Capitol Building itself being "outside the jurisdiction" of Bothan law enforcement / etc, but that's more because I would expect a separate organisation to be responsible for that, a la the precedent of the Senate Guard. I suppose functionally it works in much the same way, and maybe it's a moot point... but if we're going to insult the Bothans by saying that they can no longer be trusted despite all their loyalty and sacrifice, I need to know who made those accusations in the Senate so that my character can be appropriately shitty towards them.

For everything else though, re: location and such, we seem to be on more or less the same wavelength.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

It's my understanding that the Alliance is much more like the United Nations than the United States. Planetary governments have more autonomy than the States do.

And everyone knows the Bothans are dirty spies, can't trust 'em.

edit: that is to say, it is probably somewhere in the middle. Having a Washington DC area set up for the senate and alliance government would serve the purposes you guys are talking about, right?

[Captain Untouchable]

The Vatican is probably a better comparison than Washington, DC, since it would be a district within a city, rather than a separate city unto itself.

At this point, what's bothering me is that... it's all well and good you guys shrugging off the impact of this, but it's not your character that it affects. If we retcon this extra-territorial thing into existence, it's going to force me to fundamentally alter the way that I write Torrsk Oruo'rel. For starters, you have just insulted the Bothan people, and you've dumped a big fancy monument to that insult in the centre of their capital city: that is surely going to earn the Alliance a lot of resentment from the Bothans on Bothawui in particular... and if you didn't trust them before, ho boy, pissing them off probably wasn't the smartest idea.

Outside of that though, it forces Torrsk into a really sucky position. This is a man who was fiercely proud of being the leader of SpecForce, but who resigned his commission to continue serving the Alliance as a politician because he believes in it's ideals. The fact that the Alliance chose his world - and not Mon Calamari - as it's capital is a big deal, and he is proud of that, and he is determined to have the Bothan people live up to the trust and faith that the Alliance has placed in them. He wants the Bothans to be seen as the warm and fuzzy defenders of truth, justice, and the Republic way. It's why he's promoting cooperation with the Sluissi and Sullust, to design new starships for the Alliance so that the entire navy isn't just Mon Calamari ships. It's why, despite his cat/dog animosity with Taataani, he's generally in support of the Cizerack taking a far more active role in Alliance politics, industry, etc... he feels that the Alliance has put their trust in the Bothans, and that he needs to make his people (and himself) a role model.

Except that with this retcon in place, that doesn't work. He gave up his rank for this, and after all he's done for the Alliance, the Senate snubs him and his people. He's got a public who are irked and grumbly about the Alliance Senate being in their city, sitting in their little extra-territorial zone, leeching all the benefits of being protected by Bothawui but sitting there all smugly isolated from it's laws and taxes. It's going to be very hard for Torrsk to stick to his ideals without the "fuck yeah, we're the Alliance capital, woo, streamers!" public sentiment behind him... and this is the man that the Senate has nominated to be Minister of Defense, a man whose people you just flipped the bird at. That's not the role in the story that I signed on to write, and it's not one that sounds especially fun to me, either. It also kinda ballses up a lot of the stuff that I'm working on with Torrsk and Vansen... I'm kinda relying on the fact that Torrsk/the Bothans are onboard to make it all work.

Maybe it's just a matter of spin. Instead of "extra-terratorial", maybe we call it "extra-jurisdictional". Once you step across the threshold into Capitol Building, you're under the jurisdiction of the Senate Guard or what have you (there's precedent for this on Republic Coruscant). Maybe we're very careful and diplomatic with our wording, and we liken it to a Consulate or an Embassy... but in that case, it'd have to be something that's limited to the building itself. If you go demanding that the Bothans cede a larger chunk of their capital city to the Alliance Senate... that's not going to be received well.

[Alexi Hesith]

I have an answer to this. Just give me a few minutes to get it down in a properly written form...

[Alexi Hesith]

OK. This was going to be longer but I think the essentials are all that are needed and I have work in the morning!

The Bothans offered the extra-territoriality off their own bat. They did so as a way of doing the following.

1 Putting the Alliance on a firm footing by giving them their own place but within the protective bubble of major power’s homeworld.

2 Allaying the fears of those potential new members who are not joining because they were rebel worlds but because they need a protector. Not everyone thought “hurrah” when a rebel task force hove into view you know. Plenty of people thought “dang there goes the neighbourhood” and then hid while the rebels and Imperials battled it out.

3 Allaying the fears of those members (potential and actual) who worry about the possibility of another overpowerful government being corrupted by special interests and overmighty players within it.

4 To beat their competitors for the honour of hosting the Alliance’s capitol. If they were the only ones to offer this wouldn't that be an amazing play that would set their bid apart?

Rather than an insult by Alliance members this way it is another political masterstroke by the Bothans and their heroic (at the time soon to be) senator.

[Captain Untouchable]

Hmm. I am not completely sold yet, but I see potential. Rather than it being right off the bat, perhaps it was a compromise that Torrsk championed: people were reluctant about the capital being on Bothawui, and offering the extraterritorial space was the way that Torrsk "sweetened the deal" to make sure the Bothans got the honour, instead of someone else (like those pesky Mon Calamari). That I think I could manage to work with.

Something else that might help sweeten the deal is if there are obvious perks to the Bothans by having the capital located there. Did the Senate "repay" the Bothans for the extra-territorial district by sinking money to improve facilities on the planet / in the city? For example, does Drev'starn now have a bigger / fancier starport to cope with all the additional traffic? Has the city's power grid / defenses / etc been bolstered to help keep the capitol safe? Did they give everyone a free upgrade to high-speed broadband, because the network / communications demands of the Senate are higher, etc?

It's all a matter of spin, I guess - finding a way to convince the Bothans that they're getting a good deal out of it after all.

[Alexi Hesith]

Rather than it being right off the bat, perhaps it was a compromise that Torrsk championed:

My apologies. This is what I get for trying to use sporting metaphors. I meant that the Bothans offered it themselves rather than being asked for it. This would, surely, come as part of a compromise deal as you suggest.

Something else that might help sweeten the deal is if there are obvious perks to the Bothans by having the capital located there. Did the Senate "repay" the Bothans for the extra-territorial district by sinking money to improve facilities on the planet / in the city?

I think that some of the benefits would be incidental. The building work would have created (or at least safeguarded) jobs as would the need to provide security and other services. More obviously, the Alliance would, I imagine, put quite a lot of credits into the work as might some generous donors. Perhaps, having lost the fight to be host some of the member worlds (or individuals from them) would attempt to get their cut of the glory by donating to the construction fund with a quiet suggestion that their name happening to be put on a wing of one of the buildings would not be unwelcome.

The thing that I would like to stress is that while there is a little bit of retconning to be done here in establishing that yes, indeed, the Alliance has been operating out of its new base for a few months, the whole thing is going to be an ongoing exercise. The centre-piece (i.e. the Senate Building) and some support facilities (i.e. offices) will be in place as the result of a crash programme to signal "we have arrived" but the rest will be added in over time. This will give us some broad parameters within which to work while retaining the scope for (a) putting in place what we need for stories to work and (b) having some fun with the implications of the Alliance living in a building site of sorts for a few years.

[Jaden Luka]

My apologies. This is what I get for trying to use sporting metaphors. I meant that the Bothans offered it themselves rather than being asked for it. This would, surely, come as part of a compromise deal as you suggest.

That I understood - what I meant was, it's a compromise that Torrsk himself specifically conceived/championed, as opposed to something that the Bothan people/government (ie. the Combined Clans) volunteered of their own accord. That way, it's not necessarily something that the Bothan government is entirely comfortable with: it potentially becomes something that Torrsk proposed/arranged when it seemed like the capital might be declared on Dac (or somewhere else) instead. Makes it a "tactical compromise" by the former General rather than the Bothans themselves being spontaneously benevolent.

Who knows, maybe securing the Alliance capital was his last act as a member of the Advisory Council, and that's what tipped things over the edge into him becoming a Senator: his "penance" for giving up part of Drev'starn during the negotiations. I imagine choosing the capital was one of the last acts of the Advisory Council before the Senate took over. The Alliance would needed to have known where their capital was going to be (or at least had a probable location) while they were negotiating the Treaty with the Empire, because "making sure the border is as far away from the capital as possible" is an important consideration, and they couldn't have formed the Senate until after the Treaty was signed (else they wouldn't know which worlds were in their territory and thus deserving of an invite).

[Alexi Hesith]

Any further thoughts on this anyone?