Election(s) 2004

[Jedieb]

Wow, I guess every political cartoonist, comedian, or satirist that's taken a shot at Dubya, Clinton, Bush Sr. Reagan, etc. should be rounded up and tried for treason. Unless they waited for the President to be OUT of office. Then I guess everything is okay.

The final day of this week's newscycle brings us more stories on Al CaCa (spellin' it like it sounds!), the widening FBI investigation of Halliburton, and celebrity endorsements! Arnie is in Ohio today, and this week Kerry had Springsteen and Bon Jovi. I think these celebrity endorsement ARE effective. They may not garner many swing voters, but they can help get the base out. They can get people out to rallies and make them that much more likely to vote. Who's going to stay home? Who's going to show up at the polls no matter what the weather is like? That's what's scaring both sides silly.

[Jedieb]

Wonderful, Bin Laden has just released another tape brought to you by the fine folks at Al-Jazerra. My guess, after much soul searching, he's finally ready to endorse a candidate for the U.S. Presidency. And he's probably including a congratulatory message for the Sox.

Good gawd, why can't we find this jagoff.

[Jedieb]

It looks like this Bin Laden Tape is going to dominate the end of this news cycle. Already, the "partisan hacks" ( Jon Stewert is my hero!) on Crossfire were already spinning this to their guy's advantage. It's going to be interesting to see how each candidate addresses this video tape. They're both going to have to address it.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Charley
You cannot even begin to understand how little we actually care.

Oh, but I do know how lil you guys care about other countries.

[Charley]

Originally posted by Dutchy
Oh, but I do know how lil you guys care about other countries.

You're not very good at this reading comprehension thing. Caring about your country != caring what you think about our leader.

[Droo]

Charley has actually demonstrated what someone has said to me about Americans, this is not a negative statement, insult or otherwise, just an interesting observation which seems true to me. Americans in general, as far as I have seen, have this very blasé approach to viewing the rest of the world and what is going on there. It appears like to the general American, detatched in a very young and naive sense, and rightly so because in the grand scheme of things America is a very young country that has grown up very fast. This is no cause to criticise really, it's quite admirable that so many American's are insanely patriotic, sometimes blindly so, but at least they care so much about their own country which is more than can be said for most of the world.

America farts and the world holds it's breath until it's plastered over the newspapers the following day.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Charley
You're not very good at this reading comprehension thing. Caring about your country != caring what you think about our leader.

Oh, I know, but in this case it doesn't matter.

[CMJ]

I know US policy affects everyone. So I understand why our friends from abroad are watching this so closely. That said, I don't give a damn what they think about Bush, Kerry, Clinton, or George f'n Washington.

I'm not really a fan of the President(I doubt I'll vote for him...and I didn't vote for him 4 years ago), but I can't tell you how much it irirtates me reading international folks slam him.

I think it's like my family. Take my brother for instance - I make fun of him all the time. At times the whole family might pile on him if he does something dumb. But if someone from OUTSIDE the family says something it's time to circle the wagons and beat the hell out of the offending party.

Aussies, Brits, French, etc. push more folks towards Bush by complaining about him all the time IMHO.

[Master Yoghurt]

Here is one of the great ironies of this years election though; rarely if ever was foreign policy so important to win, yet despite that fact; what foreigners think of the presidental candidates apparently does not mean much to most people.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by CMJ
Aussies, Brits, French, etc. push more folks towards Bush by complaining about him all the time IMHO.

There's a lot of truth in that statement. America, for better or worse, has a very strong "circle the wagons" mentality, like CMJ said. The more the rest of the world hammers on a sitting President, the less influence that criticism has on the average American. It comes to be viewed by many as simply overkill rantings.

I think we can see a microcosm of this phenomena right here on this board. Many here don't think Bush is by any means a great president, but the constant criticism and complaining about him by some (be the complaints accurate or not) tends to cause people to come to his support.

I know many in the international community don't like Bush, but the constant griping day-in and day-out is going to just make a lot of Americans give the rest of the world an election day version of the middle finger.

[Marcus Telcontar]

We speak out about the Bush Admin because we care what happens to our own countries and the places around us. So if we percieve that we've been wronged, it's not right to speak up?

Tis isnt Bush bashing for the sake of bashing. It's highly concerned and informed foriegn citizens who are genuinely worried. The main critics internationally aren't speaking because Bush is an American. They're speaking out almost like never before because we really think there's some serious problems in the policies of Bush and Co affecting us or with the potential to affect quite badly. It's in our self interests to try and do something to make American voters realise and vote not just on domestic, but International issues.

Edit : Especially how much percieved (ie real or imagined) interference the USA inflicts on other countries. I suppose that I could say rather cynically it's called Karma baby - Now you know why the hackles go up when someone fromt he USA sticks their nose where it doesnt belong - however that may be, personally I'm speaking out becuase I'm genuinely worried in the direction the world is going and not out of some sort of time to get one back. I really dont think most who are speaking are doign it to be nasty or because of a grudge.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Marcus Telcontar
We speak out about the Bush Admin because we care what happens to our own countries and the places around us. So if we percieve that we've been wronged, it's not right to speak up?

It's not wrong to speak up. Far from it. It's the manner and frequency with which it tends to be done that is a big turn off to those who ultimately have the power to affect who sits the Oval Office.

Tis isnt Bush bashing for the sake of bashing. It's highly concerned and informed foriegn citizens who are genuinely worried. The main critics internationally aren't speaking because Bush is an American. They're speaking out almost like never before because we really think there's some serious problems in the policies of Bush and Co affecting us or with the potential to affect quite badly. It's in our self interests to try and do something to make American voters realise and vote not just on domestic, but International issues.

It's the perception of it being bashing for the sake of bashing that is the problem, though. International concerns for US policy is expected by most Americans. The problem is, as I said, when it comes in from every angle on almost every issue on a consistent basis, many Americans start to either tune it out as ranting, or begin to "push back" and support the sitting administation because they see it as bashing of their country.

For the record, this isn't a blame game, pitting international complaints about US policy against American patriotism... I merely stating reality. If the international community wants Bush out of the White House, a continual stream of complaint isn't going to work... it's only going to re-enforce his base and mobilize them into voting in greater numbers.

[Charley]

Originally posted by Dru
Charley has actually demonstrated what someone has said to me about Americans, this is not a negative statement, insult or otherwise, just an interesting observation which seems true to me. Americans in general, as far as I have seen, have this very blasé approach to viewing the rest of the world and what is going on there. It appears like to the general American, detatched in a very young and naive sense, and rightly so because in the grand scheme of things America is a very young country that has grown up very fast. This is no cause to criticise really, it's quite admirable that so many American's are insanely patriotic, sometimes blindly so, but at least they care so much about their own country which is more than can be said for most of the world.

America farts and the world holds it's breath until it's plastered over the newspapers the following day.

Not really. I've demonstrated more than enough that I'm fairly connected in terms of world events. That simply does not enter into it when we're talking about foreign critique of domestic politics.

One doesn't need to have a "head in the sand" worldview to realize that such yammering from foreign elements is more or less sound and fury.

[Droo]

My comment was made in light of your "You cannot even begin to understand how little we actually care" post and that's all. I know that was made in reference to someone's opinion of the president so in the way I highlighted youself as being an example of such traits, I'm likely to be wrong. Your post simply reminded me of what I said in my previous post. I can't pretend to have read half of your posts in this thread let alone half the thread since I'm not that politically minded but saw that and felt the urge to post something that had been brought to my attention recently.

Personally, after all the sound and fury I've heard over the last few years, all I've recently come to the bleak view that politics, particularly any kind of democracy is simply a case of choosing the lesser of evils; no one man replacing another isn't going to change a country at the moment.

[Charley]

Originally posted by Dru
My comment was made in light of your "You cannot even begin to understand how little we actually care" post and that's all. I can't pretend to have read half of your posts in this thread let alone half the thread since I'm not that politically minded but saw that and felt the urge to post something that had been brought to my attention recently.

Ah, now it makes sense. Yes that single quote was in terms of the foreign political analysis, and not of foreign interaction in general. If you read more of what I said before and after, it would be a little clearer

Personally, after all the sound and fury I've heard over the last few years, all I've recently come to the bleak view that politics, particularly any kind of democracy is simply a case of choosing the lesser of evils; no one man replacing another isn't going to change a country at the moment.

John Locke would be pleased.

[Droo]

(Googles for John Locke.)

Edit: Just searched and one of the first things I read was "John Locke was one of the greatest philosophers in Europe at the end of the seventeenth century. He came from Oxford, England." I'm out of it. I thought he was a politician or something.

[Charley]

Originally posted by Dru
(Googles for John Locke.)

Edit: Just searched and one of the first things I read was "John Locke was one of the greatest philosophers in Europe at the end of the seventeenth century. He came from Oxford, England." I'm out of it. I thought he was a politician or something.

And as a bonus, I cited a foreigner; somebody from your own island no less