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Thread: Election(s) 2004

  1. #21
    As long as the award is given it will be a meritorious one. It's one of the longest standing military honors and it wil always be considered one by most people. I understand what you're trying to say, but I just don't agree with it. Again, it sure as hell wasn't highlighted more than his other military awards. But he earned them, and when they were attacked, what was he supposed to do, act like they never existed? They went after ALL of his military record. Even if he had NEVER been awarded those PH's, these dirtbags still would have gone after his other awards and his military record. One, because of his anti-war stance when he got back from Vietnam, and two, because they have no shame and they've done it before.

    As for the SB campaign, it's eroded Kerry's support amongst veterans and done some damage in the polls. Who can tell what's happening with moderates. Some people are disgusted, and the Sean Hannity's of the world are having an orgasm covering it. Better it gets dealt with now than in October.

    Elizabeth Dole just gave a speech and emphasized how marriage must be defended. Defended in the country that will air "Wifeswap" on ABC this week. Unreal.

  2. #22
    Dan the Man
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    I've seen the PH's used by Kerry boosters far more than his merit-based stuff, so I'm really not too sure about that. Of course, it could be due to both edges of the spin sword, so who's to say.

    That, combined with the whole Swift Boat farce, has elicited a nice big from me. To be sure, both sides are loving it. They get to roll in mud, cause a drama bomb, and don't have to worry about things like "issues".

    I mean, hey! Who wants to know about THOSE!

    (That being said, this slap-fight will probably overshadow the government for the next few weeks; enough time for that STUPID assault weapons ban to sunset

    Bitch my little primadonnas! Bitch your drama queen hearts out!)

  3. #23
    The speeches I saw yesterday were pretty good. I'll always watch McCain.

    Good grief Dole's speech made my skin crawl. The far right of the party needs to form their own group so folks like myself won't feel bad about voting for the GOP.

    I can vote for the moderates(McCain is a personal hero). Heck, I have just as many issues I agree with Republicans as Democrats, but whenever someone evokes God in a major way - it just makes me ill.

  4. #24
    Dan the Man
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    McCain needs to have a convenient epiphany and jump ship to the Libertarian Party. We need a big face

    (gets bottle of chloroform)


  5. #25
    Marcus Telcontar
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    That Sen Zell Mitchell (sp), not a good speech. His key points already kciked aside.

    I was impressed with Arnie's speech, Cheney was the usual mind blowing excement from him and Bush... eh, not bad. But then again, with different people behind him, Bush would be a lot different IMO.

    anyway, John Kerry finally comes roaring out of his hole and does what he should have done a while ago....

    The New York Times
    September 3, 2004
    Bush Is 'Unfit' to Lead U.S., Kerry Charges
    By DAVID M. HALBFINGER and MICHAEL JANOFSKY

    NANTUCKET, Mass., Sept. 2 - Roaring back at his Republican rivals, Senator John Kerry called President Bush "unfit to lead this nation" for "misleading" America into war in Iraq, and he accused Mr. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney of having avoided combat during the Vietnam War.

    "For the past week, they attacked my patriotism and my fitness to serve as commander in chief," Mr. Kerry said in remarks issued Thursday night as Mr. Bush was about to accept the Republican nomination for a second term.

    "Well, here's my answer," Mr. Kerry said. "I'm not going to have my commitment to defend this country questioned by those who refused to serve when they could have and by those who have misled the nation into Iraq."

    Mr. Cheney capped a weeklong assault on Mr. Kerry's character and national-security credentials at the Republican convention on Wednesday night, saying that he honored Mr. Kerry's service in Vietnam but that the senator's 20-year voting record on foreign policy and military issues made him unfit to be president.

    Mr. Kerry hit back last night in his toughest remarks yet about the qualifications of the Republican ticket.

    "The vice president even called me unfit for office last night," Mr. Kerry said. "I guess I'll leave it up to the voters whether five deferments makes someone more qualified to defend this nation than two tours of duty."

    Mr. Cheney received five deferments and did not serve in the military. Mr. Bush was in the Texas Air National Guard.

    "Let me tell you what I think makes someone unfit for duty," Mr. Kerry said, turning to Mr. Bush. "Misleading our nation into war in Iraq makes you unfit to lead this nation. Doing nothing while this nation loses millions of jobs makes you unfit to lead this nation. Letting 45 million Americans go without health care makes you unfit to lead this nation.

    "Letting the Saudi royal family control our energy costs makes you unfit to lead this nation. Handing out billions of government contracts to Halliburton while you're still on their payroll makes you unfit.

    "That's the record of George Bush and Dick Cheney. And it's not going to change. I believe it's time to move America in a new direction. I believe it's time to set a new course for America."

    A spokesman for Mr. Bush's campaign, Steve Schmidt, called the remarks "another example of John Kerry trying to divide America over the past."

    "The contrast between the president's hopeful, optimistic vision for the future that is laid out in his acceptance speech versus John Kerry's politics of anger and pessimism will be totally clear to the American people," Mr. Schmidt said.

    Mr. Kerry's speech was released just before he took off to deliver it at a midnight rally in Springfield, Ohio, alongside his running mate, Senator John Edwards of North Carolina.

    Earlier on Thursday, Mr. Edwards said Mr. Kerry's rivals were attacking him because they had achieved so little worth celebrating.

    "I can understand why the vice president spent so much of his time talking about John Kerry," Mr. Edwards said at a lively rally in Norristown, Pa. "It's because he doesn't want to talk about what they did the last four years."

    Mr. Edwards, who campaigned much of the week in economically depressed areas of West Virginia and Pennsylvania, began his response to the Republican convention from his hotel in Philadelphia late Wednesday night, issuing a statement saying, "There was a lot of hate coming from that podium."

    Shortly after 5 a.m. on Thursday, Mr. Edwards was at it again, sitting through interviews that the campaign had requested with NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN and Fox News and offering each virtually the same assessment of the Republican speeches of the night before.

    The attacks from Mr. Cheney and Senator Zell Miller, Democrat of Georgia, were "way over the top," Mr. Edwards told Fox News. The attacks were filled with "an enormous amount of anger," he told ABC.

    On CNN, he said, "If you got up and went to the refrigerator to get a Diet Coke, you would have missed any discussion of what they're going to do about health care, what they're going to do about jobs, what they plan to do about this mess in Iraq."

    He also told CNN that many of Mr. Cheney and Mr. Miller's accusations were wildly inaccurate.

    "It's unfortunate that under the circumstances that's what Republicans wanted said at this convention," the senator added.

    Later, at a community recreation center in Norristown, Mr. Edwards said: "The anger that we heard from the vice president is not going to change this country or do what needs to be done for America. With all the anger and venom we saw focused on John Kerry, I wish we would see a little anger about the millions of people who lost their health care. How about a little anger about the almost two million people who lost their private-sector jobs?"

    Even as his audience interrupted with cheers and applause, he told the crowd again and again that he and Mr. Kerry had better ideas to create jobs and expand health care than the Bush administration.

    He also implored his audience to recall the less strident tone that the Democrats projected at their convention last month - give or take an Al Sharpton - and to compare it with what they watched on Wednesday night.

    When Mr. Edwards invited audience members to ask questions, one man suggested that the Democrats were campaigning too timidly, a criticism that many Democrats around the country are beginning to raise.

    "You're up against the dirtiest fighters in the world," the man said. "If they hit you, you've got to hit back twice. How are you going to handle it the next two months?"

    "There's a difference between how you fight and who you're fighting for," Mr. Edwards said, choosing his words carefully - just hours before Mr. Kerry's blistering speech was released.

    "It's one thing to engage in a lot of personal assaults, like some of the things we saw last night," Mr. Edwards said. "It's another thing to fight with everything you've got for the American people and the people you believe in."
    Low blow and utterly deserved for that contemptable smear campain against Kerry.

  6. #26
    I liked Kerry's speech. Now Zeil Miller, since when has he become Pat Buchanan??? Man was there some hate in that speech, he basically called democrats traitors. I guess he thinks the US should establish a dictatorship.

  7. #27
    TheHolo.Net Poster

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    Originally posted by Marcus Telcontar
    That Sen Zell Mitchell (sp), not a good speech. His key points already kciked aside.
    He's a Dixiecrat. What do you expect?

    I was impressed with Arnie's speech
    It was probably the only thing in the convention that I payed any real attention to.

    Cheney was the usual mind blowing excement from him and Bush... eh, not bad. But then again, with different people behind him, Bush would be a lot different IMO.
    My dad's a republican and he's been going on and on for a week or more about how he wishes that Bush would can Cheney. I have to admit, that would do wonders for his image. There's something not right about that guy.

    anyway, John Kerry finally comes roaring out of his hole and does what he should have done a while ago....

    Low blow and utterly deserved for that contemptable smear campain against Kerry.
    Hey cool, its still okay to perpetuate the slap fight. Like I said, nobody really wants to get this competition grounded on issues or anything.

  8. #28
    Yeah but back in 92 he was the keynote speaker at the democrat convention and he went on and on how Bush Sr. was bad for our country. Now 12 years later he has done a 360. Heck 4 years ago he was against Bush jr. I think the man has gone senile he doesn't even act the same. Also not all dixecrats are like this. Retiring Senator Fritz Hollings is supporting Kerry.

  9. #29
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    Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
    Yeah but back in 92 he was the keynote speaker at the democrat convention and he went on and on how Bush Sr. was bad for our country. Now 12 years later he has done a 360. Heck 4 years ago he was against Bush jr. I think the man has gone senile he doesn't even act the same. Also not all dixecrats are like this. Retiring Senator Fritz Hollings is supporting Kerry.
    Dixiecrats really don't care about biting the hand that feeds them. They were originally programmed to hate Republicans, and now some see the republican ideal as being adopted by Democrats, and they attack there as well.

    Or maybe when you're about to retire, you get a comforting sensation of having tenure, and the ability to say what's really on your mind in the first place.

  10. #30
    "The vice president even called me unfit for office last night," Mr. Kerry said. "I guess I'll leave it up to the voters whether five deferments makes someone more qualified to defend this nation than two tours of duty."

    Mr. Cheney received five deferments and did not serve in the military. Mr. Bush was in the Texas Air National Guard.
    As I understand it, Kerry also sought a deferment but was denied, and his tours of duty lasted three or four weeks. I don't think this particularly means anything, especially not in the case of old rattletrap Cheney.

  11. #31
    Originally posted by Pierce Tondry
    As I understand it, Kerry also sought a deferment but was denied. I don't think this particularly means anything, especially not in the case of old rattletrap Cheney.
    Of course it doesn't. Its just another log on the fire. There's a much easier way to kill the issue if thats what either Kerry or Bush want, but they certainly don't.

  12. #32
    You're right about that. I was a bit disappointed Bush didn't go into more depth on his plans for reshaping the tax code, but that's a sensitive issue and probably best to be trotted out later for ammunition closer to the election date when there's less time for it to be picked apart.

    I have to admit I found it interesting that Kerry launched a big attack speech the night Bush accepted the nomination (after he got back from windsurfing, lol). I don't recall the same thing happening after the DNC, so it makes me wonder why Kerry's gotten so aggressive.

  13. #33
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    Maybe because he's afraid of losing.

    Have you heard about the 'protestors' from NYC? There was a bunch of them outside the Fox news building, complete with 'free speech' lawyers, and they were chanting for Fox to shut up. Haha! All for free speech - at least their own. Fox also interviewed these "Kerry Supporters" to ask them what they were protesting, and the ones they talked to had no idea.

    Also, here in Oregon when Pres. Bush was here my brother-in-law was thinking about being a protestor for Kerry. Not because he has any paticular political views, but the people arranging the protest were going to pay him $500 for it.

  14. #34
    Well Bush spoke the day Kerry accepted the nomination, just not right after. I think this is just typical politics.

  15. #35
    As I understand it, Kerry also sought a deferment but was denied, and his tours of duty lasted three or four weeks.
    Not true, in fact, Kerry could have easily gotten a deferment if he had wanted one. His father, a career civil servant who served as a Foreign Service Officer in the Eisenhower administration, was actually opposed to his son going to Vietnam. Kerry's family could have easily gotten him a spot in a Mass. guard unit. As for his tours of duty, the second one lasted over 4 months and ended when he was wounded for the 3rd time and was granted relief under military policy. His first tour on the U.S.S. Gridley began in June of 67. In Feb. of the following year the Gridley set sail for Vietnam. In Feb. of that same year Kerry requested command of a Swift. He returned stateside for training and was back in Vietnam in command of a Swift boat in Dec. of 68. By my count, that's not exactly 3 or 4 weeks.

    August's job report is due today. Depending on what the numbers look like one side will have cannon fodder for the next couple of weeks.

  16. #36
    Marcus Telcontar
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    Maybe because he's afraid of losing.
    Or, more likely, it's because the SBVfT smears and lies are actually swaying the more stupid of the swing voters. Unfortunanlty, there are people who cant think for themselves and will not look deeper into issues and allegations and these allegations were compelling and the SBVfT (for TRUTH??? man, what a laugh) voice was being heard, affectign a sizable number of voters.

    Charley I think that Kerry would prefer to go with issues and policies. But, the campains and smears have gotten to a point where they have to be answers and they have to be retaliated against. It's unfortunante that Kerry had to bite back. However, dragging Bush and Cheney's war record in is I hope a way to force the republican attack dogs to be silenced on the issue.

    But with that scumbag Karl rove around, I doubt it. What an ugly person he is.

    Fox also interviewed these "Kerry Supporters" to ask them what they were protesting, and the ones they talked to had no idea.
    Sleective editing. I bet they had soem good reasons - but of course it's not cringe worthy to put those, is it? The whole of NEWS Inc (Murdoch owned press), is controlled by the views of the Murdochs and I very much doubt they would allow the protesters to look good.

    Actually, it's pretty common for news media to not make protestors look good. It's not news worthy to see a well spoken calm and rational protester with a well thought out argument.

    We can only dream of FOX shutting up and a genuine free media springing up in their place. Ahhh..... the dreams of youth. The cynicism of approaching middle age however knows it wont happen :/

  17. #37
    Marcus Telcontar
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    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...?oneclick=true

    Firswt week of Australain Election summary. Not a bad one, even if it highlights the Liberals flaws a bit too much. Latham gaffed a bit when trying to explain that a levy is not a tax.

    However IMO, Howard called the election earlier than he wanted and his party is looking a bit disorganised, while Labour and Latham were quieter than expected, but obviously setting up pretty well with their themes.

    You might need to register to read some of the articles of the SMH, but it is worth it. It's one of the better news sources. http://www.abc.com.au/election is brilliant.

  18. #38
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    Originally posted by Marcus Telcontar
    Sleective editing. I bet they had soem good reasons - but of course it's not cringe worthy to put those, is it? The whole of NEWS Inc (Murdoch owned press), is controlled by the views of the Murdochs and I very much doubt they would allow the protesters to look good.
    I heard this on talk radio, the Laura Ingram show. It's nice how you always have a pat answer to disregard everything you don't like to hear.

    Also I notice no ones touched the "paid protestor" bit that is absolutely 100% true no doubt about it, first hand information.

  19. #39
    Originally posted by Marcus Telcontar
    Charley I think that Kerry would prefer to go with issues and policies.
    I sure don't. If you wan't a great example, look no further than one of Kerry's favorite pet issues as a Senator: gun control.

    Its one of the few issues that the Senator has a near-flawless voting record on. Look what the Brady Center has to say about him. They give Senator Kerry an A+ rating (highest a gun control legislator can get from the gun grabbers). Even in a campaign year which is marked by Kerry's Senatorial absenteeism, he's managed to come back in time to vote for AWB extensions. He'd rather drop babies into meat grinders than miss another chance to snub the 2nd amendment. Don't let that silly photo-op of him with a shotgun fool you either. That's the same kind of semi-auto shotty he wants banned

    However, if you look at the past, its such a venomous thing to approach on an election year. Look at the fallout in the Democrat-heavy congress after the first AWB passed, and look further at what happened to Gore's candidacy when he attempted to push the issue.

    Look at Kerry's presidential campaign. Has he given much soapbox time to this pet project? Strangely, he hasn't. He's been curiously silent on the subject. Its ironic when combined with his voting record.

    Its not just Kerry, either. Bush doesn't want to touch the issue either. His method of avoidance has been to shift responsibility away from himself. He says he'll sign an AWB extension, if it makes it to his desk, that is. That way, he can appear to be for the extension, and yet if he refuses to lift a finger to push for its passing, he can ensure it gets pidgeonholed at the same time.

    Yes, I know I'm a crazy gun nut, and I know its the lion's share of what I tend to talk about. It just so happens to be a great example of what I'm talking about, and I just so happen to have a great amount of info on it. Isn't it interesting how such an important issue has been conspicuously absent from any presidential grandstanding? Not that I'm complaining too loudly about it. The bank's erring in my favor on this one

  20. #40
    Marcus Telcontar
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    I heard this on talk radio, the Laura Ingram show. It's nice how you always have a pat answer to disregard everything you don't like to hear.
    Or did I say what I did because it's true?

    How could you even consider the dribble that comes from FOX newsworthy or even close to telling the truth, without major distortions? That not a flame or a troll, that's a genuine WTF? question that as an Australian, I cant understand how FOX could be considered reliable or even vaguely unbias

    Fine, News Ltd started in Adelaide over 30 years ago. Murdoch in the 80's took over mcuh of the Fleet and came up with crap like what the Daily Mirror and The Sun has become - gutter journalism.

    He took his News into the USA market via FOX and sent that lurching to the right wing and a parrot for his views.

    Fastest way for an editor to loose his job at News? Go against the Murdoch in political views.

    This is well known and even documents on the SMH site or on ABC.cnet.au, which I would encourage people to research through. I'd encourage anyone to getthe facts on this, as I've just done a lightning summary. The problem for me to really espouse the problems with News Ltd is that it's been around in Aust all my life and the rubbish they sprout at times is just background noise - and I've made a decision to avoid News Ltd sources and stick with the more reliable Packer / Fairfax / ABC / BBC sources. I dont know much about NPR, but they seem okay, though as I said, I dont know much of them, I am willing to be schooled on if they are actually any good.

    I have been well known for ranting on how the News media is NOT free press for a long time and if you look at the facts and history of Murdoch, you will see this is in fact very true and a real woory. Media and journalism has it's bias of course, but when one man controls a great chunk of it quite ruthlessly, then you do indeed have some real problems.

    The bias of FOX was seen most notibly in the Iraq war, which I dont think I really need to document - it was self evident and been posted before.

    This is why FOX must be taken with a huge handful of salt and you must compare what they say to the BBC, Aust ABC, or smaller more independant news organisations.

    Paid to protest? COOL! Sign me up, that's good money!

    Charley, I'm a bit torn on the AWB - on one hand I understand why you dont want anythign like that in a community and on the other hand, I understand the reason why you do and why men love them. Much like I love the highly overpowered and unnecessary turbo cars.

    AWB is a wedge politics issue. I can only guess no one wants to go near that wedge and I can understand why.

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