Master Rank Discussion

[Captain Untouchable]

How are we viewing the role of a "Jedi Master", out of curiosity? I was reading through wookieepedia recently, and it turns out that the only prerequisite for becoming a Jedi Master is that your Padawan has passed the trials, and become a Knight. So, as soon as Anakin became a Knight, Obi-Wan became a Master automatically. There are instances of people being granted the rank of Master without having ever trained a Padawan, but apparently that's the principle behind it all.

It caught me by surprise, because I'd always assumed that being a Jedi Master was synonymous with being on the Jedi Council, but apparently not.

Based on that, Drin "turning down" the rank of Master would be a bit weird: might be seen as disrespectful to his former Padawan's memory, or whatever. However, turning down a leadership role / Council seat / something like that would have no bearing on Master status.

I think. At least, that's how I understand it. Unless Master in this context means something totally different. Jen, you know stuff: help me before I get confused.


Oh. And, uh... Amos Iakona is a Padawan to Tionne Thanewulf ...who is a Knight, I think.

[Drin Kizael]

Based on that, Drin "turning down" the rank of Master would be a bit weird: might be seen as disrespectful to his former Padawan's memory, or whatever.

Never had a padawn. He trained one youngling for awhile, and she ultimately became a Master no thanks to Drin (almost despite him really).

I saw the title "Master" as kind of like some x-degree black belt. Not in terms of fighting, but it depended on one's mastery of the Force in whatever form that took. In which case, Drin does not feel he deserves that anymore, for reasons I've alluded to in his background story.

Seeing a padawan through to his trials is a good benchmark for Master, sure. It definitely proves you're qualified to teach, which is another definition of Master in both martial arts and religion. It's never been synonymous with the Council, though. Qui-Gon was a Master.

[Captain Untouchable]

Aye, yeah. But if you infer entirely from the movies without having read any EU stuff, it isn't nearly so obvious. They use Master both as a term for an unmarried male, and for a Jedi Master; "Master Jedi" isn't the same as "Jedi Master".

According to the EU, seeing a Padawan through trials is the default way to automatically become a Master. There are a few special cases of Masters having been granted the rank by special decree of the Council, so I guess that would be how Drin got the rank.

*shrug* Just thought it was interesting, and worth getting some clarification on how Fans is using the term.

[Drin Kizael]

*shrug* Just thought it was interesting, and worth getting some clarification on how Fans is using the term.

So would I. Jenny? You out there?

[Captain Untouchable]

Apparently...

tehwofl: Our Internet has been disconnected

D'oh.

[Dasquian Belargic]

Crisis averted, for now...

Anyway, my understanding of the Jedi Master ranks stems mostly from OOC really. However people interpret the rank IC is down to them, i.e. whether you want to be a 'master' of many things or just just focus on certain elements of the Jedi archetype.

We don't really have a Council at present, so I'd say that has no bearing on the title - likewise there are no 'Trials' per say, though becoming a Master pre-reset usually meant you had trained a number of students through to Knight rank.

That being said, I'll update the list now

[Drin Kizael]

Well since it is not an IC rank, can you please put Drin Kizael on the list as a master. Thanks.

[Dasquian Belargic]

It is IC too, tho. I mean, Navaria gets called a Master, Daria is a Knight, etc.

[Captain Untouchable]

Anyway, my understanding of the Jedi Master ranks stems mostly from OOC really. However people interpret the rank IC is down to them, i.e. whether you want to be a 'master' of many things or just just focus on certain elements of the Jedi archetype.

By that, do you mean that anyone listed as a "Master" is expected to be an in-charge type person (OOC)... or just that it used to be that way: that's the origins from pre-Reset etc, and it just hasn't been changed?

It might be worth working out if we're gonna have a Council type doodad (or something else), so we can work out if "Jedi Master" needs to mean anything, if we need to put people like Navaria into a higher category, etc.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I guess I didn't explain myself clearly. Hmm...

By the rank stemming from OOC, I mean that OOC we would say "Ok, this character is ready to be a Master" rather than IC having other Jedi debate about it. So, OOC Dani was like "Okay, after this thread Navaria will have gone through her final Master trial" and the rest of us said "thumbs up!"

Right now, a Council doesn't make any sense to me. The group is still forming and there's no reason all the present Jedi couldn't contribute their opinions towards any group decision.

[Captain Untouchable]

I rewrote this five times, and its still long. Ick.

Just because the Wheel is new doesn't mean we don't need leadership. For starters, someone needs to interact with the Rebellion on supply and security issues. We effectively need a "President Roslin" at the very least. Beyond that though, we need to decide if we are actually going to try and form a "Quorum of Twelve", or if we're going to have a Quorum of Ships' Captains, just so that we can start moving characters in appropriate directions.

For example, if we aim towards a Jedi Council, that implies an ordered approach, and suggests we need some sort of hierarchy through the ranks. It might be worth thinking about what will qualify someone as a Knight or a Master in this climate. Barton Henning is a Padawan, but he was actually trained by the Jedi Order; Amos Iakona on the other hand is also a Padawan, but has only just started his training. Should they have the same rank, or should Henning default to Knight because he's actually had formal training? Following the same pattern, does someone like Tionne Thanewulf, Drin Kizael, or Ilias Nytrau - someone who passed the trials and was thus ratified as a Knight by the Jedi Council - deserve to default to Jedi Master, because they're the closest thing to seniority that we've got?

A Council isn't the only option, though. I'm not intimately familiar with EU, but I think Luke Skywalker declared himself Grandmaster at some point, and had a big Jedi convention on Endor or something. Are we going to level the playing field and have an open forum? If so, we'd need to formalise who the chairperson / speaker / Grandmaster / whatever was.

Another option would be to echo the Alliance Council. What about having a Jedi Watchman for every sector represented by the Alliance? Heck, we've even got the genuine Watchman for Corellia; we'd only need half a dozen more, which is less than the Jedi Council would have contained; and Master / Knight / rank / etc isn't nearly so important.

From that last bit especially arises the question of how involved with the Rebellion are we planning to get? Are we aiming to keep ourselves independent, or are we going to throw our backing behind the restoration of the Republic? If so, we need to start getting more chummy, etc.


Not saying we need to decide everything, pick out names, and start deciding on colours and decor for the Council chambers; but it might be worth picking a vague direction, just so we know what we're aiming for: are we aiming for "Jedi Order", or "Jedi Chaos"? And, like the thing that led us to this point, to decide what each rank actually means.

[Navaria Tarkin]

I think it would make more sense for the Jedi, IC, to discuss what they feel is the right course of action. Some might not like any of your ideas presented and the group is still quite small. Protecting their numbers is Navaria's priority now and already works closely with the Rebellion Officers assigned to the Wheel as liaison.

[Tionne Thanewulf]

I agree with Navaria; we should have an IC Jedi congregation where all of our active Jedi would meet up and discuss things - that way we would value EVERYBODY'S input on the matter via an open debate and then derive a solution IC. That way we would avoid delegating ''power'' to only a few individuals and have all the other lower ranked chars just having to take whatever is served.

For instance, Amos has military experience and knows Imperial ways quite well - that has to count for something too, right?
I'd say the major flaw of the old Jedi Order would have been this hard hierarchy that allowed for little flexibility. i.e.traditionalism and seniority. With so few of us, it would make sense that everybody has an IC say.

Also, my opinion is that leaders should be those people who OTHERS recognize as leaders IC. That way nobody should feel excluded or under the pressure to play according to unflexible rules imposed by somebody.

But generally, I agree. We need to set a course where Jedi are heading.

My two cents.

[Captain Untouchable]

Obviously yeah, we're still quite a small group, so nothing big and fancy is called for as yet. I just don't think we should use that as a reason to avoid at least thinking about where we're going. A lack of plan is a sure-fire way to make sure that things don't go anywhere, 'cause no one will know what's meant to be happening, things won't happen in case they step on anyone's toes, etc.

Not advocating any one option in particular: I just think its something that we need to at least start thinking about.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I agree with Nav. I have more thoughts on this which I'll edit I here later!

[Captain Untouchable]

Just a random thought that popped into my head: how large a group are we actually assuming the Jedi to be? I had it in my head that we had a plethora of unnamed NPCs kicking around with us; is that not the case?

Probably totally confused and wrong... I just assumed that, since we have the majority of the active Jedi characters on Fans at the moment, we were sort of assembled.

[Dasquian Belargic]

Ultimately, we will obviously have to agree OOC on how the group should evolve, who should be 'in charge' and so on but to get to that point, I think an IC debate would make the most sense. I myself have 3 chars with 3 very conflicting opinions on the Jedi and the Wheel's role in the future of the "Order"

I'm happy to start a thread for us all.

As an aside, we actually had a small meeting of sorts already: http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19618 but everyone else stopped posting

[Captain Untouchable]

Isn't that a bit backwards, though? Don't we need to work out what we're doing OOC, before we start posting about it IC?

I can just see a thread where we go in blind winding up with the wheels spinning, and not actually getting anywhere.

[Barton Henning]

Like I said, I have three characters opinions on how the group should evolve - there isn't any one I prefer, so I am happy to leave it up to my IC-selves discussion to decide :mneh

[Navaria Tarkin]

To force an OOC decision IC, with possible conflicts, doesn't seem like a good idea. Might split up an already splinted faction based upon circumstance.