MasterpieceOriginally Posted by CMJ
Obama raised $52M in June:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS...ama/index.html
Most impressive!
Obama lost major points with me when he actually voted yes for the FISA Amendments Act. McCain abstained from the vote (meaning he likely wasn't there for it; he probably would have voted yes). I'm not sure if Obama is trying to use things like this to play more towards the center of the political spectrum and woo conservative voters, but this seems just a horrible move by him, since even a good section of conservatives hate this act.
I consider myself to be in the undecided category of voters, but was leaning towards Obama. This, however, is close to unforgivable IMO. I really would like to hear his reasoning for voting yes on granting the telecoms immunity. Special interests at work here? I hope not, but I'm not going to be naive enough to think it isn't possible.
Last edited by Figrin D'an; Jul 17th, 2008 at 08:49:54 PM.
Yeah, that was one hell of a sell-out
He in fact did not vote for immunity. The actual votes beforehand showed what he really thought - he voted for EVERY amendment get rid of immunity, there were three bills to do that, each was defeated, he voted for each of them.
His position was pretty clear - he would vote for the bill but he wanted immunity gone and would vote for any bill that amended the legislation to do that.
Unfortunantly, the real reason why he voted yes in the end is so the retards in the media and the Republicans who love to cry TERRORRRRR OMG would be able to use this as a big stick to whack him with over National Security - his real weak point. Now he said there were parts of the bill that he thinks are actually good (Have a look on his website, not hard to find) and he did try to remove what he thought was bad.
But in the end, you have a problem if you are in his position. Vote No and hand every moron with a 527 an issue to beat him with, or deny the Republicans the wedge issue and keep the campaign on track but risk alienating a small group of voters who in the end will not vote Republican anyway and will realize Obama is a superior choice on a whole range of issues from the economy to abortion.
So in the end, he did vote for the bill as it stood. But he did voted three times to deny immunity. And frankly, there a hell of a lot more that people should be looking at with McCain than one issue Obama pretty much had a foul hand to use and probably had no choice but to do.
I do not like the FISA Act any more than you guys do. Yeah, it was disappointing he did not keep a hard stance on the issue. It is clear to me Obama did not want the bill, yet he voted yes on it. This is one peculiarity of politics I don't understand. Maybe it was some sort of tactical positioning for the general election in the fall. Or maybe it was more of a legislation maneuvering to get the most edible result that was possible at the time. Or maybe it was both. I don't know. What I do know hoewever, if you are concerned about government's invasion of privacy, you don't want to vote McCain over Obama..
I DON'T think it was a case of special interests / lobbying though.
I don't think it will hurt him because only liberals hate the bill. Everyone else is okay with it. It isn't like liberals are going to vote for MCCain now and there are too many important issues for them to decide to stay home. I think they will hold their noses and hope he changes it when he is president. I am okay with the bill if it doesn't have immunity attached. That is the part I don't like.
You forget the libertarians, the green voters, and the independent voters. The danger is when you alienate these groups so much, they vote Nader or stay home instead of voting.
Well Bob Barr is the libertarian candidate and he is way too conservative for any liberal. The Green Party is a joke right now putting that moron as their candidate. She be lucky to get 50 thousand votes. There is Nader but he is still too hated by liberals because of 2000.
This is hardly the case. There are plenty of people across the spectrum who hate the idea of not only giving the telecoms immunity for their surveillance shenanigans, but also for the fact that this act essentially removes judicial oversite from the entire process, and any accountability that the telecoms, the CIA, the NSA or White House had in all of this disappears. Conservatives who are not part of the repugnant pile of feces called the Republican Party don't support this at all, because it's about protecting a bloated government with too much power.
Sorry, that explanation doesn't cut it. Not with me, not with many others who are upset that he wouldn't vote against this. Yes, he voted for amendments to the bill to remove the immunity clause. That doesn't change the simple fact that he voted "Yes" this time around, despite that the two biggest and hotly contested parts of the FISA Amendment Act were immunity and effective removal of judicial oversight. He signed a bill that will allow the Bush Administration off the hook on this entire surveillance mess. If he did indeed do this as a way to boost his national security cred, or keep the GOP from using this issue in upcoming campaign propaganda against him, it's a ridiculous tactical mistake on his part. He's going to alienate more people through this than he will gain from the the small pool who actually think this act was a good idea.
And frankly, there a hell of a lot more that people should be looking at with McCain than one issue Obama pretty much had a foul hand to use and probably had no choice but to do
Thanks for attempting to twist this away from focusing on Obama's decision on this specific matter and trying to give him a pass on this by saying his opponent is far worse on issues that weren't part of the discussion. I'm sure Obama can find a place for you in his campaign; you're good at trying to deflect every criticism of him.
You can't just blame Obama though when just about the entire democrat congress voted for it. I think like 11 senators voted against it. And less than 100 members of the house voted against it.
I don't think he's blaming Obama for anything. I think he's criticizing Obama for choosing to support the bill.
This is why I'm not thrilled. Accountability is important and judicial oversight is critical.There are plenty of people across the spectrum who hate the idea of not only giving the telecoms immunity for their surveillance shenanigans, but also for the fact that this act essentially removes judicial oversite from the entire process, and any accountability that the telecoms, the CIA, the NSA or White House had in all of this disappears.
Tough luck for you then. You might be worried what is in the face of it one small issue. Millions others have got the problem the entire country is going broke and going backwards at quite a rate of knots.
So who's going to fix that? McCain? He hardly knows what economics is.
Having the excuse that "the other guy is worse" is still terrible impetus for signing off on some really awful stuff. There are better ways for Obama to play to the center without coming off as compromising in a situation where he really shouldn't. The FISA bill is completely disgusting, and for somebody who is running on a ticket of hope and change, this really does kind of hurt the spirit of his campaign, even if he is still obviously the better candidate. Like it was said, some of his spirited supporters may end up just staying home if this sort of offense continues.
I doubt they will stay home, besides so far this has been the only issue that has bothered them. I doubt we see anything else like this from here to November.
Meanwhile Obama is in Iraq. He was just in Afghanistan, any thoughts on how this will help out his image on Foreign Issues to the US?
FISA
He should have voted against it. I don't agree with his support of the legislation, but it's not a deal breaker for me. It's also another example of the old adage; In primaries you run to the left/right, in the general election you run towards the center.
Obama's Foreign Tour
McCain and his surrogates goaded him into this trip, now they're privately regretting it. He's doing quite well and he's getting some incredible receptions. He's looking at a huge crowd tomorrow in Germany. Anyone think McCain would get that kind of reception? But what's really going to make this trip stand out is Maliki's Der Speigel interview and his apparent endorsement of Obama's troop withdrawal time line. It's a kick in the gut to McCain. In fact, even the White House is starting to realize it's time to start look at withdrawal. Although it hysterical to see the White House use the phrase "time horizon." McCain has spent so much time attacking Obama's Iraq policy and equating withdrawal with defeat that Republicans now have to come up with ridiculous language.
The Media Loves Obama
Republicans have been talking this up a lot lately. It's not all hype either. But the fact is, the media loves a good story and ratings and Obama gives them that. The crowd he's going to get in Germany tomorrow is an example of that. McCain just can't bring in the excitement or the numbers that Obama does. Obama is a "new" story, McCain for many is "old" news. It's also a bit ironic that a candidate that use to joke that the Press was his base is now crying foul about biased coverage. McCain use get a lot of slack and affection from the press. He's just not use to playing second fiddle to anyone when it comes to the press corps.
And the NY Times was stupid for not printing McCain's editorial. Don't judge it, just print it you idiots. Yes, it was more of an attack piece than an issue paper, but by not printing it they made it bigger than it would have been if they'd just ran it. It's already been carried and printed at several sites. Plus, it gives the right ammo against the evil, wicked, "liberal" media.
I really don't see Obama pulling away, but he's been pretty solid in polls for weeks now. He's got a solid 4-6 point lead and the electoral mock ups have him averaging over 300. I really think he's got a ceiling that's going to keep this from being a landslide, but I'm encouraged at how he's been polling.
"Dad, you killed the zombie Flanders!" "He was a zombie?"
I agree I think he is doing a good job. I really like the foreign tour he is doing.
Obama is expected to announce his running mate / VP nominee this saturday. My money is on Senator Joe Biden.
Biden gets secret service protection (ABC)
Edit: Breaking news! CNN confirms Obama/Biden '08.
Edit 2: CBS just declared this as well now. And the front page of the Drudge Report says IT'S BIDEN.
Last edited by Yog; Aug 22nd, 2008 at 11:18:34 PM.
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